2: Where's Home Really... for Asma Khan?

Jimi Famurewa  
Hello, this is Where's Home Really? with me, Jimi Famurewa where well known names give us a peek into their heritage and culture to help us discover what home really means to them. And thereby perhaps also understanding ourselves, our neighbours in the modern world a bit better too in the process. In each episode, I'll be asking my guests to share four key elements that provide them with that unique sense of home, revealing their entertaining, eye opening, or deeply emotive personal stories along the way. Those four elements are a person, a place, a phrase, and a plate. For me, perhaps unsurprisingly, it would definitely be linked to food. I think it would probably be just the sound of my mum putting plum tomatoes into a screaming hot pan downstairs maybe humming a church hymn to herself, and the scent almost kind of coming up through the floorboards, the thwack of her spoon on the edge of a pan, and that just kind of drawing me out of bed on a Sunday morning. But what will today's special guest pick? Here's a flavour:

Asma Khan  
Every aspect has been so challenging. But I rise because I need to put my flag in the ground. I visualise myself winning. When you're a warrior you lead your entire team. It's all the women in my kitchen who've been with me for 10 years. This is their battle too.

Jimi Famurewa  
Today's guest is a chef, restauranteur and qualified lawyer who turned her back on the British courts to learn more about the cuisine of her homeland in India. She has since launched her own hit restaurant in London. Darjeeling Express now in Carnaby Street's Kingly Court. And she is both the first British chef to be profiled on Netflix's Chef's Table and the first ever chef to be included on Vogue's List of 25 most influential women. Asma Khan, welcome. How are you?

Asma Khan  
I'm very well, I'm very excited to be on this.

Jimi Famurewa  
I feel like we've spoken quite a few times, haven't we? And we're not quite at Frost Nixon levels. But I've interviewed you a few times. And it's just so lovely to see you again. And I feel like this concept, this show speaks so much to the themes of your life and work. I'm really looking forward to, to hearing what you've come with; to hearing your thoughts. I always learn so much every time I speak to you. But I just wanted to start off actually with the title of the show. Where's Home Really? One of those phrases that there are a lot of ways that you can answer it, that you can approach it. The idea of your actual home is something that that you can be called into question for. It can be soothing, but it can also be presented as a challenge. What does that question remind you of?

Asma Khan  
Well, I have lived longer in this country than I have lived in India. But despite that, home is still India. And home is where my parents are. They moved houses from when I got married. And I moved to England in '91. They moved very soon after that into my father's ancestral home. And that's not where I grew up. But I realised then that it's not the bricks and mortar that makes a home. It's the people. I have no childhood memories of that house. I didn't go to school there. I didn't play in that courtyard. And yet, because my father and mother were there, I felt this is home. And it's very strange, because I always thought emotionally, I'm very linked to Calcutta, I cooked the food of Calcutta. And so that would be my natural home, or London would be my natural home. But I've never had to think about as so deeply because home is not just a casual term that I'm going home, because it is much, much deeper, more layered. It is that absolute core of the roots that ties you down. It's the anchor in your life. And I thought a lot about it and I realised that it is actually where my parents are living now, when I didn't even grow up. And I didn't live.

Jimi Famurewa  
I love that idea of it being linked to a specific person and where they are and there's almost like an aura or an essence that they imbue a certain space with. And I think you're absolutely right. That sense of home is something that is maybe carried in other people. What is the person that represents home for you?

Asma Khan  
It has to be my mother, but with apologies to my father. I couldn't return any place. And that sense of homecoming is being close to her and her touch and being with her would make any place home. So yeah, as a very important part of feeling the sense of unburdening that I am a child again, we've all forgotten that feeling that you have without responsibility, you don't have to play a role. You don't have to put your mask on. You don't need to adjust your microphone. There, you don't need to do anything. There you are nothing. And you are so free. That only comes from being with a more, somehow she takes my burden off everything.

Jimi Famurewa  
That's so lovely. And again, I can totally relate. And I'm sure so many people will as well. Has that relationship and that kind of strong affection has that ever been challenged? I know that you're quite honest and upfront about your status within, you know, your family being a second daughter, and that you had to sort of fight to be regarded in some ways. Has that ever put a strain on your relationship with your mother and that sense of home that she embodies?

Asma Khan  
No it didn't I, I heard from so many people, whenever I got into trouble, who told me that oh, your mother cried when you were born, she doesn't really love you. And it was a way of, of hurting me. And really really, it shook my world. It never put a strain between Amma and me because whenever I went to her, her response was always I love you very much. They are lying. You are very precious to me. And then when I was three and a half, I remember when my brother was born, she never celebrated. I come from a royal family, the arrival of a male in this context was not just a son, it was the heir to everything, and totally did not celebrate his birth. And somehow I realised then that irrespective of what everyone says that I was the unwanted one, that I disappointed everybody, that when the pleasant boy was born, nothing changed. And she treated me exactly like him. So there should have been strains. But because she was so absolutely firm in her love for me. I really could not allow this to penetrate through me, despite the knocks that other people gave me telling me often because it wasn't just that being our second daughter. I was fat, and dark, and not very pretty and not graceful. And that was so different from how girls were meant to be in my family. And I constantly got ridiculed and constantly told, No one's going to marry you. You're so ugly, you're so fat. Don't go and play cricket outside because you become black. And when you're black, nobody wants to have you. And so I had to deal with that as well. And my mother was phenomenal. She would come on and tell everybody, anyone who says this to her, you know, does not allow her back to play here. That's a big thing, you know, and they don't get fed either. But the other thing was that it also helped a lot that my sister, who was everything that everybody thought I should be, she was fair, she was beautiful. She had long hair, she was graceful. She was slim. She was absolutely beautiful. She was this beautiful princess. And my sister would always come and hold my hand from the back and tell me, You are the warrior princess. There's a princess in Indian history, who fought the British and went out on horseback with a sword drawn and the men followed her. And she'd tell me you are the warrior princess.

Jimi Famurewa  
Is that the phrase that kind of brings you back to that idea of home that almost incantation that you are the warrior princess and you've carried that through life?

Asma Khan  
Absolutely. That is my phrase, because it's this whole idea that you don't lose. I mean, I'm just going through this. I'm struggling to get my place open. My restaurant opened. I had to push it by a week but we're having to face huge hurdles. I am bruised by the amount of times I have fallen over this whole process. It's been absolutely soul destroying. I have been defeated on so many different aspects of trying to get the space open, starting with the money, but the cost of living with you know staffing, every every aspect has been just so challenging. But I rise because I need to put my flag in the ground. I visualise myself winning. When you're a warrior you lead your entire team. It's all the women in my kitchen who've been with me for 10 years. This is their battle too. So if I fall and I crumble, then I want to be able to fight. Because that's the thing that, you know, this is an important part of being a leader, that you take everyone with you. But you have to be the strongest one who doesn't stumble. I'm not over strong. But I have learned how to put my mask on and come back in radiating power, because that is not for me, it's for them. It's for my team to feel that it's going to be okay. Because this is something that many of us do unconsciously. And I think that I learned this from my mother, and I'm sure your mother's the same, that when things go really wrong, they transform into these goddesses of strength. And this is the thing that you know, I want to be like a more, I want to be that powerful, you know, figure in so many cultures, African and Asian, have these women who lifted everyone around them. And I may not become that in the end. But I aspire to become that powerful figure that everybody takes strength from. And I am running on empty right now, especially. I've been through a lot, especially in my family recently. But I feel undefeated in the end.

Jimi Famurewa  
That fortitude and that ability to shoulder these things, you know, I think of my mum. And that definitely stemmed from her heritage, her idea of home, her notions of tradition, what we come from, what we can sacrifice, I always kind of wonder, to what extent, you know, can that be stifling or limiting? In some ways you talk about what you were faced with, because of how you looked or perceptions about you when you're growing up? That's that springs from culture as well. And I wonder, do you think that you would have been able to be the Asma Khan sitting before us now. If you have stayed in India, if you hadn't have come to Britain?

Asma Khan  
Absolutely not. London made me what I am. I am from the East. And I'm from the West. But we could never have had Darjeeling Express in any other place but London. London is the most incredible city, it literally gave us the strength and gave us the space. Because from the roots down, we grew from a small sapling into this powerful tree. Where we can now give cover and shade to other women who want to get into hospitality and cook. So I think that this, this transformation is only possible in London. And this is the one uncomfortable part of my culture, we do not have an all female restaurant, that women cooking, who are home cooks in our part of the world. And I want to know why. Who is stopping them from coming into the professional space. Because our women, like so many women, and I'm sure your mother as well. They made cooking look effortless. No one thinks they need to pay us for our roti. This is the problem. And in London, people are willing to pay. And we're, you know embraced us with open arms. It's not- Netflix came much later. So when we were nothing and nobody, Londoners embraced us. And this is the power of London. And I will always be grateful. The making of me, even though I don't still consider London my home, is London. London gave me the platform, the stage, the soil, and the strength to be who I am today.

Jimi Famurewa  
I presume that this sense of appreciation for British culture and what it's given you is something that you've kind of had to like maybe make your winding way through. What was your initial reaction when you first got here?

Asma Khan  
I thought it was an awful country. It was so cold. I came in January. And anyone who's been to Cambridge in January knows that little river froze and it was just freezing and I had never seen Hollywood films in Calcutta because they're a Marxist government who banned all American films.

Jimi Famurewa  
Were there any examples of British culture? Any frame of reference?

Asma Khan  
I mean, My Fair Lady. I watched her on repeat because I had a VHS you know, the cassettes? My Fair Lady and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. And I love the Beatles. I love the Beatles. And I just get off I loved all their songs. And I didn't understand a lot of references. But it kind of made me feel that this is this is what is this country all about it and people are like the Beatles,. It was a real shock. It's also a very different time, you know, now, you can Skype your dog in Delhi. But that pre internet time without mobile phones. I wrote letters home, my father would write letters to me. My mother never wrote to me. She wasn't very communicative when it came to things like writing or speaking. She wasn't affectionate. She never hugged and kissed me. So when I used to see, mainly white people hug their children in public, I used to be fascinated thinking, you know, wow, that person is hugging their child. I don't know. It's at that time, our culture where people wouldn't hug and kiss their kids at all. I've noticed that things have changed in India that I see my cousin's embracing and cuddling their kids. But I don't remember being cuddled or kissed or held my hand.

Jimi Famurewa  
Well, that's an important little point. Other cultures, other heritage, a broader horizon in terms of your experience can change what is seen as normal within your culture or within your heritage.

Welcome back to Where's Home Really? with me, Jimi Famurewa and my lovely guest, Asma Khan. What is your choice of plate? I imagine this was the toughest one.

Asma Khan  
Yeah, I don't know. i It's hard because it's like asking me to pick you know, my favourite child or my two sons. But yeah, there are many many options that I could take. I think in the end, I would pick - and this is so predictable - biryani as my plate because biryani is something that you make when you have your clan there. I mean, it's not like the kind of rubbish that they give you in restaurants here, where they fake it you know they put a little bit of rice gravy and they put it in a pot and put something and they make it look like- biryani is made in a seriously big pot. We don't put KGs of meat and rice. Every tradition has this classic meat and rice dish, which is for mass cooking. So biryani wasn't just the fact that I love biryani I could eat biryani anytime of the day. I associated that with family. But more because we had more mainly girls in the family. This idea of the clan of women that we hung around together. And what was so beautiful about this time that we ate biryani usually was a wedding. This was my kind of should have been my worst time because I would have come out looking the worst because everybody would comment on my unpainted nails, that I wasn't very graceful that I didn't look nice that I was fat, that I shouldn't be eating anything at all, if possible. And then all my graceful beautiful cousins and sisters all looking like so beautiful. But it was just the time when they would not try to dress me up. And I loved that, that they didn't try and put makeup on me or try and say you know wear this or wear that. We used to eat. And then they will take their cue from me. What is nice Asma you tell us because you've got the best palate. Yeah, this was always outside in the courtyard. So in the courtyard when the food is to come out, because you know, just a family is like 200 people. So forget the wedding where it's around 5000 people. So they would always tell me, you know, you try everything you tell us what to eat. And now I realised that they made me feel important. They gave me power. The weddings, you know, was just about food, and food and more food and music, which is the two great passions of my life. I sang in weddings, I sang the songs when the henna was being put on the bride. And everyone would say that in her voice there is this layer of emotion so many people would cry they were these very kind of traditional songs about leaving home and being uprooted.

Jimi Famurewa  
Thinking of culture and notions of home. Are there kind of positive impacts that you think that the Indian culture has had on British culture and is there kind of a positive that you see there?

Asma Khan  
The biggest thing has been changed the palate of the nation. For most people if you talk to them who are in their 60s, even you know like late 50s. You ask them what was your first experience of spice or Indian food, they will go into this kind of, you know, our wallpapered curry house, and how they were completely blown away, and their kind of journey into exotic food, we have first advantage. And I think that's a very significant part of why you know our food is where we are. And I know people like to take potshots at you know, the curry houses, saying it's not authentic, that it's Bangladeshi. I stand on the shoulders of the giants. They open their curry houses in a very racist 1960s, 70s. They had skinheads breaking windows, they had people leaving without paying, no one gave you a loan. So they set up one way but they created an empire of curry houses. And I think that this is like incredible because even though it's not Indian, Indian, it's Indian food. But there are many Bangladeshis. But it's a South Asian success story. And this is I think our big contribution has to be the food.

Jimi Famurewa  
I want to get onto place. We maybe touched on it right at the start when you were talking about it being really tied to wherever your parents happen to be. But for your fourth element, we wanted to talk about a place that particularly evokes and reminds you of this sense of home. What is it for you?

Asma Khan  
It's the courtyard where my parents live now, in the city where they live. It's extremely, extremely hot in summer. And then it gets crazy cold in winter. But we sit outside with the fire going. And my mother normally, you know, she's by nine o'clock, she's in bed. So it's usually my father and me. And then my father would bring me a kind of a pillow. And he would tell me lie down, look up at the stars, because it's an open courtyard. And then, you know, my father's very Sufi, and he would recite poetry. And this happened every night that I've gone home. So he recites poetry, his sayings, and he would talk about justice and all the wrongs that happened in history. And the one thing that had a very powerful impact on me, in these courtyard discussions, Appa used to always tell me that a lot of injustices ended; slavery, colonialism. Someone refused to give up her seat on the bus; segregation eventually ended. And he used to always tell me, look up into the stars, and imagine that you are that person who says the first word. And that is how you battle. The battle cry should always be for someone else, who is underrepresented, who is voiceless, who has not got power, who is hungry. And those discussions are etched in my soul. So it was the thing of home and night. And often we would end up sitting by the fire, the fire died out. And we used to see dawn. And Appa used to always tell me that you know, never imagine that the darkness will continue. Day will always follow night. And it's all this kind of deeply spiritual conversations. Lift me up and you know, you dig so deep, like I'm going through a really hard time and I keep visualising that courtyard, being home, Appa sitting next to me humming something and me seeing the first lights breaking through the dark. And I am literally visualising that now as so much is going wrong. In getting my restaurant open. I am visualising the light breaking through the dark. So it's that place that courtyard and the open skies that for me is so important.

Jimi Famurewa  
Asma Khan that was so fantastic. Thank you so much for your time. All the best with the restaurant. I will be there and we will eat some biryani.

Asma Khan  
Absolutely. I look forward to that. Thank you Jimi

Jimi Famurewa  
Asma is such a force of nature. I've spoken to her a few times before. But that felt like one of the most profound, interesting, deep conversations that we've ever had. She has such a beautiful spirit about her and a forcefulness. She's so frank in her evaluation of the environment in which she was raised about how her mother and her father express their love. It just absolutely put me there and there are so many things that I could relate to and I think that a lot of other people will be able to relate to. I feel like I'd know her so much more on such a deep level. Well, that's it for this episode of Where's Home Really? with me, Jimi Famurewa were an exploration of the different rich and colourful elements that help define us and give us a sense of where we belong, which isn't always one specific place. Join me next time, when I'll be inviting another special guest to share their four elements that reveal where's home really for them. And why not follow Where's Home Really? on your favourite podcast platform? And we'd love to hear your thoughts. So why not pop us a comment or review and spread the word. From Podimo and Listen, this has been Where's Home Really? Hosted by me, Jimi Famurewa where the producers are Tayo Popoola and Aiden Judd, the executive producers for Podimo or Jake Chudnow and Matt White, and for listen is Kellie Redmond.